Time Code Slate idea...?

[MadFor3D]

I want to shoot some sync-sound Super 8. I understand that doing so for a music video generally involves a Time Code Slate. They generate SMPTE time code on a slate synced to the song track.
http://www.denecke.com/prod01.htm#TS3

These devices are quite expensive.

What I was wondering is, if I was to hold my laptop computer up to the camera for a couple dozen frames- might this work? I have Cakewalk Pro Audio installed on it, and this is capable of displaying SMPTE time code.

I know there is a problem when you film monitors, where you get those black bars. But, provided I get enough frames, might it still work?

Don't have the crystal sync for my camera yet or I'd try it.

Thanks,

M

[MovieStuff]

Hi,MadFor3D!

(can I just call you "mad" for short?)

There is general misunderstanding about timecode and what function it performs when synching up video. I have seen this misconception, even among veteran video editors with 30 years experience in the business.

First off: Timecode has nothing to do with synchronization. Timecode, or "address track" is nothing more than a convenience for locating footage accurately and quickly and is not essential to maintain frame accurate synch between two video sources.

If you take two ancient 3/4 edit decks and use an edit controller to line them up on the same start frame, they will run in perfect frame accurate synch as long as the output of the source deck is feeding into the input of the record deck OR as long as they are both tied to the same synch generator.

This is known as "chase-lock" and is the basis for all linear editing systems. Linear systems that use timecode for editing will use the timecode to make sure that the decks are starting their run on the correct frame, but once the decks are released, the record deck slaves itself to the record deck (or the synch generator) by chasing the vertical interval pulses and not the timecode.

Second, when playing back soundtracks for music videos, timecode provides a convenient common reference point between different camera angles but is not required to maintain synch. As long as the camera is crystal synched and the music comes from a stable playback device, such as a CD or DAT or even a VHS deck, you will get correct lip synch.

Roger

[MadFor3D]

MovieStuff,

That's very helpful. ...so, do you think my idea might help for reference to various camera angles?

Note: I don't want to fuss around forever and ever trying to get my crystal synced Super 8 Quicktime .mov's lined up to the .wav file. Seems like this would be an upgrade in usability compared to the basic slate method...?

-M

[MovieStuff]

On film, no, but on video, yes.

When I shoot music videos on video (with a generous dosage of "film look", of course), I prepare the playback CD with all the music on one track and a beep tone that appears on one frame once every five seconds on the other track. This music and tone get recorded to separate channels of the video tape while shooting and are digitized into my non linear system as left and right tracks. The beep appears as a "spike" in the audio track and is easy to spot.

I also digitize the playback CD with the original spikes. Then, during editing I get the music as close as possible by eye and ear, then line up to the nearest "spike".

IF super 8 sound film were still available, you could do the same thing and record your playback music on location along with reference spikes that make synching up your takes easier in post. Unfortunately, I think you'll just have to tough it out like we all do when shooting low budget music videos!

Sorry...

Roger

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited August 14, 2001).]

[jocko]

Roger..you said it all..time code is nice, but just not in the average low budget music video range of needs...extra film stock..extra film stock..shoot alot of footage.come edit time you'll see..(I'm working on a video now ..oh my god does this singer stink..lucky for her her rich father is footing the bill)..back to writing the treatment.

Neil
JOCKO FILMS

[mattias]

don't know about cakewalk. i use final cut pro and it's "time code print" to generate a quicktime file with the music and white timecode on black, that i shoot off my laptop screen. works great as a reference point for the different angles, yes. but it doesn't help you to stay in sync, no.

/matt

[MadFor3D]

So I can use my Laptop's SMPTE display as a reference, I just have to nudge the video left and right clip by clip after that till it is in sync with the audio?

Hmm, would be nice if there was a way to lay down a bunch of "spikes" on my audio track that would somehow trigger a "blooper slate?" flash on a frame or two of film...?
http://members.aol.com/fmgp/sync7.htm

Isn't there an easier way to do it cheap?

Thanks again for the responses.

-M

[MrObvious]

Why on earth would you want to do that?!? If I'm understanding you correctly you are talking about ruining your footage, or at least seriously handicapping it by flashing every hundreth frame or so. Not worth it.

As long as you can identify where in the song you are, you don't need frame-accurate sync markers.

Marc S.

[MadFor3D]

Sorry for my lack of know how on the subject. I don't have a crystal-sync camera yet, so I haven't tried it. Just sounds like matching up all the different shots to audio would take a great deal of time.

I'm just trying to learn how to "slate" it right at the beginning of each shot- to match it up the same as a traditional slate in filmmaking. However, if its lip-synced to an audio track the clap wouldn't be getting recorded... so, what do do? clap on certain beats of the song?

I'm sorry. Perhaps this lining up of the two is easier than I imagine.

-M

[jocko]

It is easy..you don't need all that crap..as long as your camera is xtal sync..and like roger said use a CD/DAT/MINIDISC for playback..syncing all the shot's/angles is no problem..the only thing is in the rank transfer..with the pulldown..you will now have your film running at 23.97fps..a slow down of 1/10 of 1%..during transfer to editing system you can slow down your audio or what I do is make a Playback dupe CD of the song 1/10 of 1% faster than the bands CD to use as location playback..then transfer audio from the original CD/DAT(does not eat up as much edit time)..in syncing use the singers lips..or a drum hit/cymbal hit..etc.

Neil
JOCKO FILMS